Re: Nonprofit helps the poor find their voice
P. Myers (mpwr@u.washington.edu)
Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:08:34 -0800 (PST)
I'll respond in the body of your text, Ron:
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Ronald J. Bartle wrote:
> // -- //
> >
> > Note also the assumption that homeless/poor/marginalized/disenfranchised
> > need to know how to better parent.
>
> practically all of us parents could do with grasping every and any
> opportunities
> to lean to be better at the incredably wide-reaching and deeply
> fascinanting
> _job_ of parenting!
>
my point was that to determine *for someone that they *require improved
parenting skills is something qualitatively different than deciding and
implementing parenting classes where we might go for other reasons. How
about a different perspective: one that acknowledges the efforts parents
*are making ...especially parents of marginalized/disenfranchised
groups... and accepting the role of learner from them? The point for me
is to recognize and utilize the diversity of skills that come from the
margins...not decide on some cookie-cutter solutions that don't first and
in an ongoing way, ask of the recipient what *they believe they or their
child need(s).
> Would Einstein have rejected the day to day chances to improve on his
> faculties as a mathemeticion and cosmological-psysicist-philosopher -
> because
> he was allready better than some!? I sincerly doubt it..!
>
chance is different than what the post described. If the parent was left
to request a service, within a context of "you are fine as you are" then
great...but that wasn't the impression I received.
> This is, simply, a victim-blaming
> > cosmology, and does little more than give the message that "you're not
> > good enough; and you need to change to get "better"...or "more
> > successful."
> >
> > Under this system, nothing happens to challenge, or to even address the
> > need for people on the margins of society to interrogate and challenge the
> > *etiology of how they became labelled as they were...
>
> Who defines "poor or illiterate" as being labels at all .. for many of
> the worlds
> poor and illiterate - poverty and illiteracy is such a real everyday
> fact of
> a gawd damned difficult life - that the luxury of semantical diatribe
> about
> stuff like "labels and labeling" would tend to remain a sealed book to
> them
> like the rest of this literate mumbo-jumbo being exchanged with the help
> of pc's etc- nowadays the very embodiment of "riches and societal
> well-being"
> or so we are frequently led to beleive in the popular press.
>
well, that's your issue with the press, I guess...because I said nothing
about "poor and illiterate"...what I spoke to was the message of
inadequacy that happens when the recipient of a service is left out of the
opportunity to evaluate or design that service.
But I wish you'd say more...I began to lose you with the popular press
ideas, and they sounded like good notions.
>
> in fact, no real
> > awareness of labelling obtains, in the words of one of the tutors.
>
> Q.E.D.
>
this does not absolve the tutor...one *must understand the implications of
perceived power and prestige...or one runs the risk of doing more harm
than good.
> >
> > Another concern I have is that poverty pimps may be "enriched" at the
> > expense of those whom they believe they "help" by more than money.
> >
> > Self-esteem is one consequence of helping...one feels that one has "done
> > good"...made one's contribution to society...helped others, less fortunate
> > than they...
>
>
> - so you are argumenting that to live the life of an uncareing faschist
> automaton with no perception of a need to reinforce ones own self-estem
> by doing good and feel good at having done good etc - is "better!?"
>
oh, of course not...I know from reading this far that you are not *that
binary a thinker! I *am concerned that one may get one's self-esteem
raised during a process which overtly or covertly/ intentionally or not,
demeans, by comparison, the student/parent-learner. The point is to
allow the learner to own what they learn...to understand that *they were
the instrument of their learning...start to finish...because marginalized
have for so long been the *objects of *fixing, that we need to know that
we have the power and the inherent good sense to know what we want and to
locate the resources for it, and to procede through adversity and achieve
the goals we have set for ourselves.
> - or is the cryptic key needed to crack the special code necessary for
> understanding this twisted and slipper text buried in a tiny microdot
> on the base of the monitor here some place...!?
>
you are saying??
> >
> > Great ego boost for the p.pimp...not so great for the ...pimped.
>
> being helped to haul oneself out of poverty thru the mechanism of
> literacy is not very legitimate and laudable way to constructivly
> boost one's own ego in a way that may well empower one to
> help others emjoy the same ego boosting effect.
>
It isn't the *mechanism of literacy with which I take issue...it's the
"expert" teacher who may...*may either be getting their self esteem from
helping "those poor unfortunates"...or, worse, may decide that this is
her/his contribution to society, and thereby excuse making the financial
sacrifices that might do even more good...
> > This is a *great idea, but should be implemented by advocates...yes,
> > advocates who are or were, peers of those to whom the offer information,
> > resources and experience.
>
>
> - let's see now - have I got this right - a literacy programme comming
> from within
> the catholic church is wrong cos of
> "vatican-mafia-banking-gold-stealing-near-slaving
> -middle-american-historical-mission-house-manipulation-and-historical-bending-of-earlier-beliefs-etc-etc.
man, you read a lot into a little, my friend. Where did I say that? (but
I suppose I *could if I wanted...)
> is bad in the same way that...
>
> a-self-proclaimed-advocate-who-MIGHT-have-been-the-victime-subject-of-abuse-by-elements-on-the-fringeof-the-military-industrial-complex-if-he/she-did-not-have-the-necessary-skills-and-knowledge-to-cope-with-and-adapt-to-the-challenges-of-thier-potential-oppression-in-a-way-that-allowed-them-to-come-to-a-possible-intellectual-accomodation-with-thier-percieved-realities-
>
> is good... in the same moment
> as these arguments in end effect could very well really boil down to
> nothing much more or less than hundreds more remaining in illiteracy and
> poverty to bolster one or anothers religious-historical or the opposite
> biggotry...
>
in short...no. You're wrong, have jumped to some incredible conclusions,
and read words into my words. but have your phun...I thought the issue of
advocacy was important enough to discuss.
>
> or wot!?
>
your stage...you answer.
>
> - puting it another way.... if one can't beat them - then one should
> join them perhaps - and as far alledegly -errantly- wrongly(!?)
> developing religions are concerned - most of us can find a few big
> lads/lasses and afford a bit of scrap timber and some 8 inch nails|a 10
> pound hammer - let that person let me know when they have been running
> thier "show" a couple of millenia with NO divergence and corruption!?
> >
is this all because you think I hate the Catholic Church?? Whew! Put
down that cross and let's try to talk more civilly.
> > We *can help ourselves, and we *can be advocates without poverty pimping
> > (let's find a way to -- albeit long and drawn-out -- say what that is
> > every time, ok?)...
>
>
> > This is an issue I've been wrestling with for a long time...advocacy.
>
>
> - hey is that "all??" - let me buy/fed-ex you a beer pal!??
>
do you expect an answer? but sure, I'll take the beer...pal.
> >
> > I was a single parent with two young children...no help but Welfare and
> > school...then worked my way through several years of school...I'd been
> > homeless, actually, more than once in my life (and dread the possibility
> > of another such experience!)...am I not a fair advocate for all the groups
> > mentioned above? Is accepting recompense (monetary) for what I might
> > do...is *that poverty pimping? Hell, I'm *still poor!
>
>
> - wonderfull - not even a trace of self-centeredness or egoism in any of
> us at all
> anywhere in the universe - great - thats what humanity needs...e e e has
> got comming to it anyhow.. real LEADERSHIP.... no no - no German
> langauge transx of that one - not from me.. gimme a break I am still a
> _british_ mil. veteran even when I do live in Berlin a while! ;)
>
want to run *that by me again? I've lost your argument...and I regret it
*is an argument (we might have had an interesting discussion)...I lost
your argument some time ago.
> >
> > I can't get a handle on how and when representative democracy becomes
> > poverty pimping...we elect legislators (lots wealthier than we) to
> > *advocate for us...to speak for us...to be our voices...sometimes we elect
> > jerks, and out they must go...but the idea of choosing, when necessary,
> > someone to speak for someone else...is that so very bad? Is this a yes/no
> > issue...always?
>
> well hell no .. er - or yeah i suppose if you look at it from the other
> end of the bar...
> m'lord.
> >
expand on this please...
> > Sorry, I'm not really criticizing the program itself,
>
> - me niether....!
>
>
> or even the motives...
>
>
> aw shucks - you cought me now... or...on the other hand...
> > of the volunteers...although I'd feel better if I heard more of what *they
> > get from the experience...and even *better if I heard that it was
> > peer-driven...
>
> this pawiouson has neeeever eveeeer been to brighton england have they
> now-....?
>
> >
> > I just needed to give something considerably less than $.02.
>
> well I will certainly 2-nd that pal.. [..scratch scratch .. let me see
> now
> .02 plus 2 x 0.2 minus the summ of the summs one first thought of and
> ....
> yeah .. shure thing .. amen bro! He _has_ sussed this one.. er .. i
> think!]
>
>
hey, let's do this again, *real soon, eh?
> >
> > Thanks. PatM
>
> JeeeeHaaaw! dammit.
>
> Enclaimer: my opinions are not my own but fully reflect the
> social-political order that has
> payed munificently to de-pattern me and all my hairs and sucksessors.
> wow - nearly as
> really .. really .. really good as the dingbat-spice gals .. whoopeee!
>
> >
> > On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, H. C. Covington wrote:
> >
> > > Forward by Sonny ...........
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 9:12 AM
> > > Subject: Nonprofit helps the poor find their voice
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.philanthropy-journal.org/nonprof/voices0198.htm
> > >
> > > ***Nonprofit helps the poor find their voice
> > >
> > > VOICES, a nonprofit that teaches reading and writing to low-income adults
> > > and children plans to open an adult magnet school later this year. Called
> > > RISE, the community learning center will use literacy to develop skills in
> > > parenting, job readiness and citizenship. Leslie Waugh reports.
> > >
> > > >From the article....
> > >
> > > A lot of well-meaning people advocate on behalf of the poor.
> > >
> > > But what happens when the poor speak for themselves?
> > >
> > > You hear VOICES.
> > >
> > > VOICES, a five-year-old nonprofit organization based in Raleigh, is a group
> > > of writers who teach literacy and communication skills to adults and
> > > children in homeless shelters, low-income housing projects, prisons,
> > > day-care centers and government agencies that serve the poor.
> > >
> > > But beyond simply teaching the basics of reading and writing, VOICES uses
> > > literacy to show students how to become better parents, how to find jobs
> > > and how to get along with other people.
> > >
> > > ....
> > >
> > > "I've been influenced as a writer by Charles Dickens and as a Catholic by
> > > Mother Teresa," he says. He concedes he's no Mother Teresa, but in VOICES,
> > > he says, "we're dealing with a lot of people whose voices haven't been
> > > heard or mattered.
> > >
> > > They're excluded from lots of opportunities and often are unable to speak
> > > for themselves. What I can do is use writing to give others tools to use in
> > > their own lives.
> > >
> > > *****
> > >
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > >
> > > John Freund, C.M.
> > > Vincentian Center for Church and Society
> > > St. John's University Jamaica, NY 11439
> > >
> > > http://www.stjohns.edu/vincentianctr AND http://www.cptryon.org/vdp
> > >
> > > freundjb@stjohns.edu 718 262 8826 Voice 718 262 8695 Fax
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ************************************
> > "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to
> > and you have found out the exact measure of
> > injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them...
> > Frederick Douglass
>
>
> r.b./ participant in european commission XIII dir telematics projects
> for the elderly and disabled.
>
> -and now you beleive at least 50% of that statement - ok? Jeez is
> IT late...! <here> ;)
>
> --
> Ron Bartle - Royal Air Force Veteran - Hobby Journalist - 24h wired Bed
> & Breakfast in Berlin, Germany. http://www.snafu.de/~snuffy -
> snuffy@berlin.snafu.de +49.30.6884295
>
************************************
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to
and you have found out the exact measure of
injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them...
Frederick Douglass