Re: It's Not Necessarily BAD to be born

William Tinker (wtinker@fcgnetworks.net)
Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:48:45 -0500


12-21-99
I think we can all agree that lifes greatest assests are being able to
think, reason,and hopefully be able to function on a level that is
acceptable to society,and our legal system,I admit I can not preach on this
subject not can I give input I have only been sober for 7 years and drug
free for 20,I feel that humanity is worth salvaging it does not matter if
you are a atheist,christian,or agnostic,or some other denomination!
This is the winter of discontent,this is the year that we should up lift a
brother or sister that wants and needs help!I realize there are persons whom
can,t accept help nor are capable of requesting help,but they are still
human and I can not see allowing them to die needless or terribly horrific
deaths by malnutrition,or hypothermia,....I have pushed my own body way past
its limits on about three occasions and don,t ask me why I survived,I don,t
know .I believe there is a higher power than we are but I don,t preach it or
spout biblical ideology...I do say that life has to be created for some
purpose other than to die after 72 years of life on this earth..My reality
checks are when I see a wrong that is flagrant I must point it out now this
might be a fault but it can be a two edged sword too.
But I am not here to debate I am here to insure, or try to prevent further
lose of life through ignorance and apathy ....
I wish every one Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2000..."A Brother In
Peace And Strife " Bill Tinker                                  ----
Original Message -----
From: Blazing Star <sananda@hotmail.com>
To: <mecragg@erols.com>; <sananda@hotmail.com>; <peregrin@sirius.com>
Cc: <s248_1132@hotmail.com>; <RRTroxell@AOL.COM>; <mfros@juno.com>;
<purcell@erols.com>; <farmerpentium@cwcom.net>; <newsboy@cultgrad.org>;
<pdfox@prodigy.net>; <wtinker@fcgnetworks.net>; <icanamerica@usa.net>;
<coh@sfo.com>; <JanineBK@AOL.COM>; <wes@speakeasy.org>;
<gbates@commoncouragepress.com>; <PolitLit-help@listbot.com>;
<ghfs@teleport.com>; <andyhe@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: It's Not Necessarily BAD to be born


>
>
>
> You are welcome, Emily, and thank you for considering my point of view, in
> the spirit it was intended. There is a spiritual link between us all that
> comes through, in our written words, despite our differing views.
>
> I agree we must reach out, to help ourselves and each other, in this
fascist
> world we live in; and that includes protecting ourselves from our selves.
> Communes or communities must always be defended because there are always
> offenders intent on disrupting and destroying our social, political and
> spiritual unity.
>
> We do not need the bible or our own new set of "holy scriptures," prophets
> and priests, to know what is going on. They may help us see and
understand,
> but they are also used, to help us dig our own graves.
>
> In this cyberjungle of words and ideas, we can catch a glimmer of who
really
> cares about the truly homeless, and who is just using them for ulterior
> motives. What you are speaking of is creating a new society, instead of
> transforming the very ugly one we now live in, and there is nothing wrong
> with that.
>
> Based upon my own research, studies and life-experiences, I do not believe
> there was ever a sense of community in White America except when faced
with
> a common enemy, such as Native, Latin, African and Asian Americans, and
> other "immigrants."
>
> It is just one more myth, the notion that all these "church people" --
many
> who were convicts in Europe -- came over here, and lived as "community."
> They came over here, to kill Indians, and to steal their land and other
> natural resources.
>
> Many went West, to kill Mexicans, while others exploited the hell out of
> their African slaves; for the Almighty Dollar, not no almighty god. Their
> "communities" were held together by murderers, rapists and thieves.
>
> Everytime I arrived at a commune -- in the Sixties, Seventies, Eighties
and
> Nineties --I found hot air more than anything else. This doesn't mean the
> people were "bad", they were just people like you and me, looking for
love,
> peace and happiness wherever they could find it. I found it on the
Internet,
> mostly. love-peace, ruben
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "emily cragg" <mecragg@erols.com>
> To: "Blazing Star" <sananda@hotmail.com>,<peregrin@sirius.com>
> CC:
>
<s248_1132@hotmail.com>,<RRTroxell@AOL.COM>,<mfros@juno.com>,<purcell@erols.
com>,<farmerpentium@cwcom.net>,<newsboy@cultgrad.org>,<pdfox@prodigy.net>,<w
tinker@fcgnetworks.net>,<icanamerica@usa.net>,<coh@sfo.com>,<JanineBK@AOL.CO
M>,<wes@speakeasy.org>,<gbates@commoncouragepress.com>,<PolitLit-help@listbo
t.com>,<ghfs@teleport.com>,"andy
> herron" <andyhe@msn.com>
> Subject: Re: It's Not Necessarily BAD to be born in a Manger
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:43:50 -0800
>
>  >Bible-thumping is part of the problem, not the solution.
> ... This is correct when Christians PRESUME that their way is the only way
> to live.
>
> Thanks to religion and its fascist institutions, including the "holy
> scriptures," the majority
>  >of homeless people have been poor all their lvies, and the majority of
>  >homeless people are oppressed minorities.
> ... Calvinism is a rationalization for Exploitation that still thrives
among
> Christians.
>  >
>  >When we "flashback" on hippie communes, most of us recognize these
>  >communities were populated predominantly by White middle and upper class
>  >individuals who decided to "turn on, tune in and drop out" of society,
for
>  >whatever reason.
> ... Some whites are still trying to do this, because the stress of life
> takes a heavy toll.
>
> Minorities and poor Whites seldom fit into this scheme of things, then, as
> now.
> ... But minorities and immigrants have stronger community and social ties
> than
> whites tend to have. Blacks are much friendlier by their very nature, and
> they seldom
> isolate themselves, as whites are prone to do.
>  >
>  >There is nothing wrong with individuals from middle and upper class
>  >backgrounds trying to establish alternative lifestyles and communities,
> but
>  >the baggage (customs, cultures, values, social, economic, political and
>  >religious beliefs, etc.) they bring to these communities is quite
foreign
> to
>  >most homeless people who have been poor and struggling for survival all
>  >their lives.
> ... Precisely so. YET,
> ... the Quakers, Shakers, Amish, Hutterite and Bruderhof ARE white
societies
> that have thrown off the yoke of materialism. There are also a relatively
> large number
> of convents, monasteries and abbeys that practice shared work and housing.
> ... It would be thoughtless and foolish for us to disdain or discount
THEIR
> experiences
> with "community" out-of-hand--even if they ARE white people. They are
> committed
> to living RICHLY in spiritual terms, yet in material poverty.
>  >
>  >To assume these homeless-by-choice people from the upper classes have
the
>  >correct way of thinking, being and living -- and that they can teach
>  >lifelong poor people how to live correctly, or suffer eviction from new
> age
>  >communes -- can be fatal.
> ... For the members of Heaven's Gate and the Branch Davidians, it WAS
fatal.
>
> This upper class arrogance is pretty much what keeps most indigenous
people
> poor
> and oppressed around the world, today.
> ... Yes, but we don't need to accept arrogant Teachers. We can repudiate
> arrogance
> and merely adopt simplicity. "Live simply, so others may simply live."
>  >
>  >Most homeless people are not homeless-by-choice, and homeless-by-choice
is
>  >in fact a misnomer.
> ... I do not earn enough money working 35 hours a week to afford a place
to
> live.
> This means, technically I'm homeless. The fact that I live with a friend
for
> whom I
> barter my rent; and the fact that I happen to have two college degrees are
> both
> irrelevant to the fact that I have NO place to call home, yet I work every
> day.
>
> People from the upper classes who choose to be "homeless" are more
> accurately
> on an extended vacation or spiritual quest, which is totally different
from
> being
> involuntarily homeless.
> ... How many people do I know saddled with huge mortgages who are working,
> yet they cannot take a breath from their payment-schedules and taxes?
> ... Struggling and being overwhelmed by demands for payment is ALSO a form
> a poverty--just as much as outright homelessness is. We must also inform
and
> empathize with the people who are having to carry heavy loads and get no
> relief.
>  >
>  >In my book, there are two types of homeless: the voluntarily homeless
and
>  >the involuntarily homeless. Within these two major groups, there are
>  >numerous subgroups, as different as day and night, or the sun and the
> moon.
> ... In my book, I threw off all my obligations when mother died and the
> nursing homes
> took everything. Now I work and I have no place to call my home--no place
> that
> drains every drop of my lifeblood, just to keep and maintain a shitload of
> "stuff."
> ... But this does not resolve the fact that "community" is DEAD in
America.
> ... It does not resolve the fact that I have no Place, no Role, no
> acknowledged
> function in this society, except as a washer of dishes and setter of
places.
> ... All my education is for nought, if this is the only situation I can
GET.
>
>  >To put them all in one basket is like trying to mix oil and water. Each
>  >group and subgroup has its own special needs and effective approaches.
> ... I belong to the group of elder workers who have no place to go
anymore,
> and
> whose children have bought in to "Generation X's" belief that, "Parents
are
> adults who should simply fend for themselves."
>
>  >Communes are a bourgeois approach to "homelessness" that does not deal
> with
>  >the very real racism, sexism and class warfare in society that keeps the
>  >hardcore homeless down and out unto death. Most commune founders want,
to
>  >escape all this by assimilating and acculturating everyone, to think,
act
>  >and be like them, by ignoring, downplaying and denying these problems
> exist
>  >within their communes, until committees are needed, to provide
superficial
>  >(bandaid) "solutions."
> ... The communes I saw traveling across this nation in 1997 ran the gamot.
> Some
> were merely isolated enclaves of friends who had insufficient business
> contacts,
> and some were truly toxic, co-dependent associations.
> ... Whatever their circumstances ARE, they can all benefit from enlarging
> their
> contacts and taking on a broader range of skills.
> ... In this way, communities may take on a role of "alternative
marketplace"
> for
> antequated, ousted and irrelevant workers that technology shoves aside.
>  >
>  >The bible and its many religions are fascism, racism and sexism to the
> bone.
> ... The Bible was written a long time ago.
> ... Let's get on with dealing with the present in the present.
>
>  >It is disguised as "God's Word" giving HIS chosen ones supernatural
power
>  >and authority, to reign over our lives, like shepherds over "their
sheep,"
>  >spiritually and otherwise.
> ... If the Bible has any use at all, it is to "mark" those principles
which
> are "holy"--
> that is, the rules--when we adopt them--that produce good communities,
> strong
> and healthy children, and an inter-generational association for the
benefit
> of all.
> The rest can just get left behind.
>  >
>  >Communes are great places for people like this, to shove their personal
>  >beliefs down our throats, if we are stupid enough to let them.  Even
>  >"anarchist" are being programmed these days. What a damn shame.
> love-peace,  ruben
> ... Ruben, thank you.
>
> Emily
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blazing Star <sananda@hotmail.com>
> To: peregrin@sirius.com <peregrin@sirius.com>; mecragg@erols.com
> <mecragg@erols.com>
> Cc: s248_1132@hotmail.com <s248_1132@hotmail.com>; RRTroxell@AOL.COM
> <RRTroxell@AOL.COM>; mfros@juno.com <mfros@juno.com>; purcell@erols.com
> <purcell@erols.com>; farmerpentium@cwcom.net <farmerpentium@cwcom.net>;
> newsboy@cultgrad.org <newsboy@cultgrad.org>; pdfox@prodigy.net
> <pdfox@prodigy.net>; wtinker@fcgnetworks.net <wtinker@fcgnetworks.net>;
> icanamerica@usa.net <icanamerica@usa.net>; coh@sfo.com <coh@sfo.com>;
> JanineBK@AOL.COM <JanineBK@AOL.COM>; wes@speakeasy.org
<wes@speakeasy.org>;
> gbates@commoncouragepress.com <gbates@commoncouragepress.com>;
> PolitLit-help@listbot.com <PolitLit-help@listbot.com>; ghfs@teleport.com
> <ghfs@teleport.com>
> Date: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: It's Not Necessarily BAD to be born
>
>
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Bible-thumping is part of the problem, not the solution. Thanks to
> religion
>  >and its fascist institutions, including the "holy scriptures," the
> majority
>  >of homeless people have been poor all their lvies, and the majority of
>  >homeless people are oppressed minorities.
>  >
>  >When we "flashback" on hippie communes, most of us recognize these
>  >communities were populated predominantly by White middle and upper class
>  >individuals who decided to "turn on, tune in and drop out" of society,
for
>  >whatever reason. Minorities and poor Whites seldom fit into this scheme
of
>  >things, then, as now.
>  >
>  >There is nothing wrong with individuals from middle and upper class
>  >backgrounds trying to establish alternative lifestyles and communities,
> but
>  >the baggage (customs, cultures, values, social, economic, political and
>  >religious beliefs, etc.) they bring to these communities is quite
foreign
> to
>  >most homeless people who have been poor and struggling for survival all
>  >their lives.
>  >
>  >To assume these homeless-by-choice people from the upper classes have
the
>  >correct way of thinking, being and living -- and that they can teach
>  >lifelong poor people how to live correctly, or suffer eviction from new
> age
>  >communes -- can be fatal. This upper class arrogance is pretty much what
>  >keeps most indigenous people poor and oppressed around the world, today.
>  >
>  >Most homeless people are not homeless-by-choice, and homeless-by-choice
is
>  >in fact a misnomer. People from the upper classes who choose to be
>  >"homeless" are more accurately on an extended vacation or spiritual
quest,
>  >which is totally different from being involuntarily homeless.
>  >
>  >In my book, there are two types of homeless: the voluntarily homeless
and
>  >the involuntarily homeless. Within these two major groups, there are
>  >numerous subgroups, as different as day and night, or the sun and the
> moon.
>  >
>  >To put them all in one basket is like trying to mix oil and water. Each
>  >group and subgroup has its own special needs and effective approaches.
>  >
>  >Communes are a bourgeois approach to "homelessness" that does not deal
> with
>  >the very real racism, sexism and class warfare in society that keeps the
>  >hardcore homeless down and out unto death. Most commune founders want,
to
>  >escape all this by assimilating and acculturating everyone, to think,
act
>  >and be like them, by ignoring, downplaying and denying these problems
> exist
>  >within their communes, until committees are needed, to provide
superficial
>  >(bandaid) "solutions."
>  >
>  >The bible and its many religions are fascism, racism and sexism to the
> bone.
>  >It is disguised as "God's Word" giving HIS chosen ones supernatural
power
>  >and authority, to reign over our lives, like shepherds over "their
sheep,"
>  >spiritually and otherwise.
>  >
>  >Communes are great places for people like this, to shove their personal
>  >beliefs down our throats, if we are stupid enough to let them.  Even
>  >"anarchist" are being programmed these days. What a damn shame.
> love-peace,
>  >ruben
>  >
>  >
>  >----Original Message Follows----
>  >From: Ramon Sender Barayon <peregrin@sirius.com>
>  >Subject: Re: It's Not Necessarily BAD to be born in a manger--depends
whom
>  >you're WITH
>  >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:23:41 -0800
>  >
>  >
>  >I noticed that the first reply I mailed went only to Emily Cragg.
>  >But then Peter replied, so I suppose somehow others read it.
>  >It included my idea of dividing the homeless into three groups,
>  >and also I used the term Consensus Reality that Peter wondered
>  >about.
>  >
>  >Anyway, here's my reply to Peter...
>  >
>  >
>  >Peter Forde wrote:
>  >
>  > > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:32:11 -0800, you wrote:
>  > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >Blazing Star wrote:
>  > >
>  > > >> There is no one solution to homelessness, in any case, and the
more
>  >choices
>  > > >> the homeless are offered, the better. Yours is a sound solution
for
>  >some
>  > > >> homeless folks, but not for all. love-peace, ruben
>  > > >>
>  > > >
>  >
>  >Ramon wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > > >There are three solutions, in my opinion, to homelessness, but it
>  >requires
>  > > >dividing the homeless community into three groups:
>  > >
>  > > >those willing to be
>  > > >trained to re-enter Consensus Reality,
>  >
>  > >
>  > > What the hell is that?
>  > >
>  >
>  >Ramon: CR is the term I use to describe the current majority 'reality'
>  >that we
>  >have all agreed to believe in. It's mainly practiced in large cities and
>  >assumes
>  >that everyone wishes to compete in a controlled hourly wage/enterprise
>  >system that includes the (to me erroneous) assumption that real property
>  >that you
>  >do not live in can somehow be 'owned' and 'rented' to others.
>  >
>  >
>  > >
>  > > > those who are mentally incapable
>  > > >of re-entering and require medical help,
>  > > What sort of medical help?  Institutionalisation, which is a problem
>  > > paradigm that they/we are already locked into?  ECT, brain surgery,
>  > > drugs?
>  >
>  >There are people living on the streets who are not in any mental shape
>  >to care for themselves. What do you recommend? Obviously some sort
>  >of halfway house would be the most compassionate solution, IMHO.
>  >
>  > >
>  > >   I have mental health trouble myself, and also regularly chat with
>  >the
>  > > homeless, and am finding that the best possible help is to have
>  > > understanding friends who understand the nature of the trap we are in
>  > > and are working to ease each other out..  If those friends be also
>  > > homeless, and also in the same obsessive compulsive institutionalised
>  > > trap, and if the so-called experts are totally out of touch with
whats
>  >
>  > > happening, then maybe the experts are not the direction to seek help
>  > > from.
>  >
>  >I agree. I think our open-door hippie commune in the late sixties helped
>  >
>  >a lot of troubled folks. Because of their intense allergy to being told
>  >what to do by authority figures, they did a whole lot better in an
>  >unstructured environment where they could just sit under a tree until
>  >the fog chilled them to the point that they thought it might be a good
>  >idea to go look for a piece of plastic, or a space in someone's tent.
>  >But it was THEIR idea, not someone telling them, "Hey, get up and
>  >go to Tent Number 305!"
>  >
>  >
>  > >
>  > >   Its very heartening to see how well academically qualified and
>  > > articulate my neighbours and relatives are becoming.   Believe it or
>  > > not, but we are role-playing and challenging to retrain out of
>  > > dependency conduct, and morale is very high!  Thus I'm hopeful for
>  > > change.   Its certainly not necessarily bad to be born in a
manger - -
>  >
>  > > depends who you're with!
>  > >
>  > > > and those who have an allergy to
>  > > >authority but are willing to relocate to rural communal sanctuaries.
>  >I think
>  > > >our Sister Emily is perhaps addressing the third group.
>  > >   Methinks this is a no-no.  Those who are allergic to authority and
>  > > have been brutalized by prison or whatever, will themselves become
>  > > authoritarian.
>  >
>  >I disagree. I have had friends who spent many years encarcerated and
>  >who were among the most generous with what little they had of anyone.
>  >
>  > > To use a pictorial analogy, that ugly piece of clothing
>  > > in the cupboard can be discovered to go invisible and thus lose its
>  > > unpleasantness, from wearing it!  Thus in practice sanctuaries are a
>  > > serious liability.
>  >
>  >I don't grok your analogy. Sanctuaries are where it's at, IMHO.
>  >The bible even requires them... see Numbers ch 35 v.6
>  >"And the Lord said unto Moses:  'When you give the Levites their towns,
>  >six of them shall be CITIES OF REFUGE in which the homicide may take
>  >sanctuary.'"
>  >
>  >At the risk of boring everyone to death, I must quote my friend Lou
>  >Gottlieb,
>  >may he rest in bliss, who was an early visionary of the Free Rent
>  >Movement (my
>  >term). He's the
>  >one who found the biblical citation ( repeated below in context of his
>  >statement).
>  >
>  >Lou's Basic Rap (as reformulated in 1988)
>  >       There are always individuals who are allergic to life in the
>  >mainstream of
>  >the society in which they live. The goals and incentives offered by that
>  >society
>  >are insufficient inducement for them to work. Their need for leisure is
>  >greater
>  >than their fear of unemployment, starvation or homelessness. Publicans
>  >and
>  >sinners, the hoi polloi, bohemians, beatniks, hippies, lumpen
>  >proletariat,
>  >"hooligani," "gusanos," "marielitos," street people, the homeless
>  >panhandlers
>  >found in every American city are names which have been used to
>  >characterize this
>  >component of society at various times. These beggars provide the
>  >opportunity for
>  >philanthropic behavior which always makes rich people feel good. John D.
>  >
>  >Rockefeller, for example, is reputed to have given away over half a
>  >billion
>  >dollars during his lifetime.
>  >       However the philanthropic urge is often inhibited by the need to
>  >decide who
>  >is truly worthy of help. As reported in Time magazine, these days some
>  >only give
>  >to beggars who are disabled, others give only to beggars with children,
>  >and the
>  >poor are more generous than the rich.
>  >       Twenty years ago, having been lucky enough to catch the wave of
>  >the "folk
>  >scare," I fancied myself involved in an attempt to ameliorate the human
>  >condition. The only kind of philanthropy I could think of which did not
>  >require
>  >judging the qualifications of the recipients of my generosity was free
>  >rent.
>  >       As a result of the events at Morning Star Ranch between 1966 and
>  >1971, I am
>  >still convinced that the Bureau of Land Management, which controls more
>  >than
>  >sixteen and a half million acres of land in California, should deed a
>  >dozen
>  >isolated parcels of forty acres each to God and see who shows up. These
>  >pockets
>  >of controlled anarchy, I am convinced, can produce lifestyles which
>  >would be
>  >convenient for this element that seems to cause embarrassment wherever
>  >they
>  >appear.
>  >       The most optimistic facet in the coming two decades is that the
>  >possessors
>  >of the morality necessary to rip off the Russian bourgeoisie have died.
>  >They have
>  >been replaced by second-and third-generation Communists like Mikhail
>  >Gorbachev
>  >who are more interested in making people happy and don't have to defend
>  >or
>  >perpetrate any further thefts. So we can look forward to a decrease in
>  >resources
>  >devoted to these efforts. In other words, the possibility of nuclear
>  >conflict has
>  >receded, and for that everyone should utter praise and thanksgiving.
>  >That's about
>  >the only thing I can see that is totally positive for the next twenty
>  >years.
>  >A later addendum:
>  >  As soon as a "groovy scene" of any kind emerges, those in need show
up.
>  >If they
>  >are really impossible, someone must ask them to leave. That person
>  >immediately
>  >comes 'way down. The problem would be easily solved if there were a
>  >dozen or so
>  >places where "el imposible" could go. One of my very good friends, a
>  >Morningstar
>  >graduate now teaching medicine at a large southern university, came to
>  >Morningstar straight out of a nuthouse, immediately felt at home and
>  >about six
>  >months later enrolled at Stanford and completed his pre-med training.
>  >Land-access-to-which-is denied-none (LATWIDN) is for people who CANNOT
>  >be
>  >anywhere else. But if there is only one such "establishment," an
>  >impossible who
>  >might fit right in one place creates friction in the wrong place.
>  >       But it is the FREE RENT movement that I long to see get started.
>  >The
>  >primary obscenity of our time is the idea that a document filed at the
>  >county
>  >recorder's office give a person the right to charge others money to
>  >"use" a
>  >certain section of Mother Earth's sweet flowing breast. The are a lot of
>  >small
>  >property owners who are quite comfortable with that notion and they can
>  >be very
>  >vicious if that hallowed prerogative is questioned in any way. Ten
>  >quidado. . . .
>  >
>  >       Now, let's open our Bibles (The New English Bible) to Numbers,
>  >Chapter 35,
>  >Verse 6:
>  >       (The LORD speaking to Moses.) "When you give the Levites their
>  >towns, six
>  >of them shall be CITIES OF REFUGE in which the homicide may take
>  >sanctuary."
>  >       It's about time to establish at least ten CITIES OF REFUGE in
>  >California
>  >where even the murderers - or potential murderers - can be free from
>  >prosecution,
>  >because the next expression of desperation on the part of people whose
>  >labor is
>  >no longer needed might well include homicide along with arson and
>  >burglary.
>  >       Given the right "set and setting," the desperate can start
>  >figuring out
>  >what is really worth doing. Making love, gardening, all artistic
>  >endeavor,
>  >cooking, entertaining and educating children, athletic contests, these
>  >are a few
>  >suggestions from Morningstar Ranch, the starship of the fleet.
>  >       God had better be legal owner of these cities, because then the
>  >answer to
>  >the question, "Who's in charge here?" is an index finger pointed
>  >heavenward.
>  >Divine guidance must be harnessed to solve the problem of technological
>  >unemployment.
>  >       We are headed into an epoch of compulsory leisure, so we had
>  >better find
>  >ways to allow as many people as possible to get along with each other.
>  >
>
>
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