RE:Psych. label bible mocked in London Times

Liberty (
Mon, 01 Dec 1997 02:42:23 -0500

Dear Don,

At 09:01 PM 30/11/97 -0800, Donald Bokor wrote:

>I'm sorry for keeping up this line of attack.  It is just that the myths
>of economics and government are too deeply embedded as taken for granted
>assumptions that I just have to scream when I read them.  (And everyone
>here in the library is getting pissed off at me for screaming.)

Don't scream too loud.  People might hear you ... in the library where I live!

>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Liberty wrote:

>Nobody can be forced into idleness, period.

Not true.  The present legislation for disability pensions does not allow
for any paid work whatsoever.  They even barred volunteer work at one time,
I don't know if they still do.  Their preferred option for people is for
them to sit at home and vegetate.

The present government is seeking to create earnings/work incentives.

>We must question and understand that reason if we are going to find ways
>to help them motivate themselves, because punishment is never an effective
>nor a moral motivator.

True.  Maybe people can tell our governments to stop cutting people off
their full benefits when they even make a baby step toward self-sufficiency.

>Opportunities to work do not necessarily mean meaningfulness of work.

I created my own work, and it is very meaningful for me - more than the $$.

>Yet, when I volunteer my time and energy to help needy people or to clean 
>up the public commons, my self esteem rises even though my pocketbook does 
>not benefit.  In fact, volunteering is the best way that I have found to 
>bring me out of depression.

I do volunteer work and require it of my staff, but I still cannot afford 
to volunteer full-time. I am not independently wealthy (yet).

>Whereas, working at a meaningless job (other then economic meaning) is a 
>great way to make me depressed. 

Me too.  That is why I lean more toward entrepreneurship and academia.
In the new economic trend of knowledge-based sector, there are many
creative ways people can make a living, ways that may not have been
traditionally open to people in the past.

>Take for example, I know a man who would pay off all of my student loans 
>and get me a home if I were to murder people whom he didn't like.  Is my 
>self esteem going to improve if I take his job?

I wouldn't take that job either.  First, it is illegal.  I would never
suggest people do anything illegal.  Second, it is coercive.  It seems
there is a certain amount of coercion there, where you would still be
under this man's control as long as you take his house and his money.
As an entrepreneur, I am somewhat limited by the constraints imposed
by my clients, but I have significant freedom to expand, to change
markets, to develop creative ideas ... I don't always have an easy
time of it, but I would much prefer the stress I have now (which can
sometimes create ulcers and migraines) than the stress I would have if
I have to scrape two pennies together to get half a meal every two days.

>I have to disagree with Wandering Bear for a different reason.  The system
>has not and will not make me work for money.  I see money as coming from
>and supporting a system which murders and marginalizes people, and I
>refuse to participate in or reproduce such a system.

Then how do you support yourself?  Even if you live off a government 
pension, or get supported by friends and family, someone along the line 
is making enough money to fit you into their expense account.  As I asked
before, what alternatives would you propose?

It seems I asked this question many times before, but never got a clear
answer on any of the lists I been on where idealism is the dominant
view of how politics should work in this world.

>I will only work out of love for those whom I work for.  My motivation 
>is not economic, but rather it is to serve all of my sisters and brothers in 

I make very good money in what I do, but that is not the primary reason
for choosing the field I am in.  I did not always make good money, and
I still stuck to the work I did because I believe it benefits people.

>And I have to disagree with Liberty, because it is not cheaper to put 
>people on pension that it is to help them become economically self-
>sufficient.  My reason for this statement is that economic self-sufficiency 
>is an oxymoron and thus impossible to achieve.

I still pay taxes.  As long as I am putting in more than I am getting
out, I am relatively more self-sufficient than someone on gov't support.
I do not object to short-term, results-oriented help by government given
to some people for short periods of time.  I object to creating a lifestyle,
where people begin to believe they have a right to this support for life.

>What capitalists and politicians want to call economic self-sufficiency 
>is actually dependency on the money that drives their economic and 
>governmental systems.  If people were to be economically self-sufficient 
>then they would not need money, and as AmeriKKKan and KKKanadian history 

Then, how would you propose a world built on an alternative?  How would
it work?  How would I get my loaf of bread I need to make my sandwiches?
How would I get the clothing I need for myself and my family?  How would
I get my house built ... all of this, without money?  Got any ideas?

>Like I'm saying, we need to be very careful how we define our problems,
>and the means to solve them.  We've already opened the Pandora's Box of
>capitalism and it has been found wanting. We need to find real alternatives 
>for people being oppressed by current economic and political systems.

Many alternatives, such as socialism, capitalism, liberalism, etc. have
been tried and also been found wanting.  Any new ideas?

>And I'm not willing to accept alternatives that place some political or 
>economic value on my life.

What else would you suggest?